tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20642800.post4054226323567711719..comments2024-03-05T11:36:50.299-05:00Comments on Stand and Deliver: Comments about To The ContraryRixahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07908864785513937876noreply@blogger.comBlogger29125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20642800.post-22968351291855422202013-05-15T13:36:31.439-04:002013-05-15T13:36:31.439-04:00Eden, I'm glad this has made you look at your ...Eden, I'm glad this has made you look at your beliefs/assumptions and really examine why you might want him with you...or not with you! I don't think there's any right way for husbands/partners. I wish there weren't so much pressure on them to have to perform a certain way during their mate's labor. Rixahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07908864785513937876noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20642800.post-63810685015504407532013-05-14T00:10:05.832-04:002013-05-14T00:10:05.832-04:00I'm a few years late on this but just wanted t...I'm a few years late on this but just wanted to add my experience. Before coming across your blog and reading about your first birth I had always assumed I wanted, no NEEDED, the father in the room with me. In fact, a few weeks ago I was telling a friend of mine that I don't care if he is uncomfortable being there, he has to be there because I want him there. But, as I read about your experience I started to think about why it was so important to me to have him there and I realized that I somehow thought he would be able to get me through the labour/birth and that I was not capable of doing it on my own. <br /><br />Your story has encouraged me to consider that when the time comes I may feel more comfortable being on my own (with him and the midwife in another room until I ask for them) if only because it will give me the privacy to focus on myself and my child. I haven't decided one way or the other but I have started to discuss all the possibilities with daddy-to-be and am excited to see how it all turns out. Edenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11614351188471974770noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20642800.post-78252530427354943732007-11-11T15:58:00.000-05:002007-11-11T15:58:00.000-05:00I think it is so hilariously double-minded to say ...I think it is so hilariously double-minded to say on the one hand, women have a right to their bodies and the choice to arrange for an abortion *where infant deaths definitely occur-- by choice and on purpose,* ok to respect that choice; and then on the other hand to say women who choose to birth in some way that *might but is not intended and likely won't* result in infant deaths, ok to disrespect that choice. Where is the sense in that?<BR/><BR/>~K~~Katherinehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09951878454894964736noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20642800.post-1996367134438314642007-11-07T00:04:00.000-05:002007-11-07T00:04:00.000-05:00A lot of this has been on my mind too. I like how...A lot of this has been on my mind too. I like how you think (not necessarily everything you think) and how you inspire people to turn these issues over in their minds for themselves. Good for you! Keep on deconstructing these deeply-held "beliefs" about the childbearing years.<BR/>~ KimberlyAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20642800.post-81666114012936107432007-11-02T23:54:00.000-04:002007-11-02T23:54:00.000-04:00Thanks for your comment drjen! It sounds like you'...Thanks for your comment drjen! It sounds like you're married to a real gem. I think we have this programming that men are supposed to behave in a certain way...is it movies? TV? It's funny that she thought he wasn't sympathetic enough! <BR/><BR/>My husband actually tried to be more "hands on" (tried rubbing my back, etc) but I didn't need or want it and asked him to please leave me alone and I would let him know if I needed anything. I appreciated the gesture; it just didn't happen to be what I needed at that moment. Being alone, but able to ask for something when I needed it, was perfect for my needs in that moment. It's funny because of the two of us, he is definitely more emotional and communicative and sensitive. I'm the one who just says what she means and doesn't think about subtext or all the hidden meanings of gestures or words. <BR/><BR/>I think the whole fathers'-role-at-birth boils down to:<BR/>- good communication before and during labor about your needs & your expectations for what he should be doing or not doing<BR/>- the individual couple's dynamic<BR/>- how the woman reacts to labor (some women, like me, crave privacy and don't want to be touched or talked to. Others are social birthers and love a huge group of women chatting away with them. Others love human touch and cuddling and find comfort with their spouses).Rixahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07908864785513937876noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20642800.post-21689281478985077192007-11-02T23:30:00.000-04:002007-11-02T23:30:00.000-04:00"Hands up anyone whose husband was in the room and..."Hands up anyone whose husband was in the room and was calm and reassuring and helpful during birth... Anyone? Anyone?"<BR/><BR/>Well, mine was pretty great - much to my shock, actually. Our first birth together was my second birth. Since I was in major labor denial, we ended up with an accidental living room UC. He was calm, reassuring, and supportive and overall made me feel safe an loved and calm through it all.<BR/>Our 2nd birth together was a more standard labor and a hospital birth center birth. I was continually surprised at his intuitiveness. I needed a lot of back counterpressure for back labor. Some of the happiest memories of our entire relationship are of me burying my face in his chest with his arms around me and his hands on my back. I never felt so safe and supported ever in my life. He didn't say much, maybe an occasional "need a drink?" or "that was a long one" but he radiated security and love and set the mood. I remember our labors together as being very intimate and reinforcing our closeness and bond. I can't imagine having birthed without him. <BR/>During that 2nd birth a friend of mine was present as the support person for my oldest son, also present. She did a great job of staying out of the way and being really unobtrusive, and making sure my son was content. After the birth, she commented that she didn't feel my husband was very sympathetic, I guess since he wasn't anxious about me or saying "oh you poor thing" type comments the whole time. The last thing I want during labor is sympathy! While I found him just being there and quiet and confident and holding on to me as the ultimate in support, she felt he didn't care enough because he didn't act "sympathetic!" I don't know if my husband is just unique (quite possible - he has a lot of other qualities I don't hear a lot of other wives talking about!) or if there is a way to promote that kind of intimate support.doctorjenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07570496336872952499noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20642800.post-79573549188726717742007-11-02T20:04:00.000-04:002007-11-02T20:04:00.000-04:00"Roaring and squatting aren't really confidence bo..."Roaring and squatting aren't really confidence boosters from their perspective, but are very helpful to the process from ours..."<BR/><BR/>Haha! So true! Michel Odent has some fascinating (and very controversial) perspectives on fathers. He argues that often the male presence--especially males who tend to think linearly and rationally--has the potential to inhibit instinctual birthing.Rixahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07908864785513937876noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20642800.post-48481071835338514462007-11-02T16:34:00.000-04:002007-11-02T16:34:00.000-04:00Bah - can't find it anywhere - I think it was base...Bah - can't find it anywhere - I think it was based on anxiety about not reaching the (artificial) labor milestones established by hospitals, which contributed to mothers losing faith in ther ability, and so, on and so forth and C-section...<BR/><BR/>I'm a freestanding birth center birther, btw, and while my previous comment might be seen as anti-guy, it's more anti their role as coach, and how, well, unsuited they are to it. Roaring and squatting aren't really confidence boosters from their perspective, but are very helpful to the process from ours...cooler*doulahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07807140304491548467noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20642800.post-9334531941062381792007-11-02T16:19:00.000-04:002007-11-02T16:19:00.000-04:00Oh God yes, that comment about the husband being f...Oh God yes, that comment about the husband being front and center drove me nuts too!<BR/><BR/>Hands up anyone whose husband was in the room and was calm and reassuring and helpful during birth... Anyone? Anyone?<BR/><BR/>Mine, despite attending 9 months of centering classes with me, was a gibbering wreck. Love him as I do, I did not find him to be a rock. I wanted to slug him.<BR/>;)<BR/><BR/>As a rule, from girlfriends I have spoken to, most men - even one who had read "The Birth Partner" five times - were almost worse than useless. The sight of their wives in pain reduced them to panic... <BR/><BR/>And did I read a study somewhere drawing parallels between fathers in delivery rooms and a rise in C-Sections?cooler*doulahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07807140304491548467noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20642800.post-79816612552204107332007-11-01T00:36:00.000-04:002007-11-01T00:36:00.000-04:00Wonderful post, in all ways. I had to smile at the...Wonderful post, in all ways. I had to smile at the discussion of husband participation in birth. My wonderful hubby curled against my back on our bed, in the same position in which we sleep, and dozed through labor with me. One could certainly not call him an "active participant," especially as I kept having to squeeze his hand to see if he was still somewhat awake. He'd sqeeze back and we would both snicker. (note: mine was a midwife attended homebirth, but they mostly left me to get on with it however I wanted, too)<BR/><BR/>I agree that a woman's needs are the primary consideration in birth. How sad that something so empowering has been taken from women, and so few women even realize the fact. And I agree, where are the other feminists?Pixie LaRougehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01270240055485984237noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20642800.post-18387028832464323662007-10-30T14:46:00.001-04:002007-10-30T14:46:00.001-04:00BTW the English title of the book is "The Farmer a...BTW the English title of the book is "The Farmer and the Obstetrician." I really like it, and I referenced it heavily for one of my comprehensive exams.Rixahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07908864785513937876noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20642800.post-17393579629942039532007-10-30T14:46:00.000-04:002007-10-30T14:46:00.000-04:00Bienvenue Dea and thanks for your comments. (Vous ...Bienvenue Dea and thanks for your comments. (Vous etes francaise? canadienne?)Rixahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07908864785513937876noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20642800.post-75467463958978867892007-10-30T14:16:00.000-04:002007-10-30T14:16:00.000-04:00Hello Rixa,I read your blog for quite a while but ...Hello Rixa,<BR/>I read your blog for quite a while but it's the first time I comment it.<BR/><BR/>Michel Odent says in one of his book ("Le fermier et l'accoucheur" - sorry, I'm French speaking) that the role of men during birth will be the central theme of discussion when (and... if, should I add) our birth culture will change. I agree.<BR/><BR/>My first baby was a hospital birth where my husband acted somewhat like a 'protector' and did pretty much what was expected of him by the medical staff. He was physicaly there but wasn't part of it if I may say.<BR/><BR/>Our second baby was born at home with a liberal mw. My husband was happy to make some decisions and to be 'the host' instead of 'the guest' like he was at the hospital. But still for me, he was not much different than another witness...<BR/><BR/>For our third child, we were just the two of us and he sure was part of that birth eventhough he didn't have to constantly BE there FOR me. I was alone most of the time but at one point he came towards me just when I wanted him with me. No words exchanged. It then became a very sensual/sexual birth where we did very intimate things. We were a couple giving birth.<BR/><BR/>Only with the birth of my third child did I truly understand that birth really is sexual. I agree that it is not a team sport but that day, we 'needed' each other to watch this baby come into the world the same way we 'needed' each other to 'create' him a few months earlier...<BR/><BR/>DeaAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20642800.post-23021027336191126742007-10-30T13:06:00.000-04:002007-10-30T13:06:00.000-04:00I, too, find it demeaning when men (be they doctor...I, too, find it demeaning when men (be they doctors or not) catch the baby and are exalted as heroes, as if they did all the work. >:/ I remember a story not too long ago abotu a woman who gave birth on a plane, and everyone was congratulating the doctor who happened to be on the flight and assisted in the birth. They praised him for doing "such a great job." OKay, so what did the WOMAN do???<BR/><BR/>Just more proof that in our culture, women are nothing more than baby vessels. It's the MEN who do all the IMPORTANT stuff.Jillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17475112158639748154noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20642800.post-82889504700141205592007-10-30T11:34:00.000-04:002007-10-30T11:34:00.000-04:00More questions floating around in my head: The iss...More questions floating around in my head: <BR/><BR/>The issue of men being "included" in the birth experience, or of men "experiencing birth." What does that mean? Why do we say a man is "part of it" when he gives back rubs or catches the baby (or whatever) but not if he simply witnesses the birth? If a man watches a woman give birth, is he "experiencing" it? Can he ever really, since he is not in her body? <BR/><BR/>It's interesting that Eric is assumed not to have been included simply because I asked that he stay in the bedroom while I labored in the bathroom. He did witness Zari's actual emergence; I called him into the room when her head came out. Before that point, it's not like there was a lot of exciting things to watch anyway! Just me sitting on the toilet between contractions, then draping myself over the birth ball and roaring. Repeat repeat repeat. Then I was sitting on the toilet at the very end with my hand between my legs (feeling Zari's head slowly emerge). Again, not much to see anyway. <BR/><BR/>I think that the language of inclusion/exclusion is so flawed when it comes to birth, because birth is not a team sport! (With all the spectatorship, cheering, & coaching implied with the sports analogy). <BR/><BR/>I think a lot of this stems from our late 20th century/early 21st century cultural expectations of fathers' roles at birth. If they aren't running around helplessly (you know, the standard comic relief in many Hollywood birth scenes) then they're supposed to be "coach dad," telling the woman how to breathe, holding her hand, cheering her on. This evolved historically when the natural childbirth movement was fighting to allow fathers at hospital births. After enormous initial resistance on the part of the medical community, fathers slowly were allowed into delivery rooms. With the advent of childbirth education classes such as the Bradley method, fathers were taught that their presence was essential to coach the woman through her labor. With the increase in nursing shortages, the entry of fathers into delivery rooms worked out quite well--they could take over some of the roles that nurses previously had filled. <BR/><BR/>Well enough musing for right now...back to dissertation writing.Rixahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07908864785513937876noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20642800.post-70850242164924938362007-10-30T00:02:00.000-04:002007-10-30T00:02:00.000-04:00Absolutely one of the best written things you've e...Absolutely one of the best written things you've ever done, this perfectly summarized all the little thoughts I had about this interview, if it could even be called that!<BR/><BR/>I totally got where you were coming from with the first paragraph in question. For you, you did what would have optimized your total surrneder and non-distraction. To make birth plans that focus hugely on, to be quite frank, anything other than the primal needs of the birthing woman is interference. I think alot of people DO get too into a "groovy experience" and invite 17 pals and plan all these candles and special songs and then dont know how to back out of it, so strong is our social conditioning about offending guests or even our mates. I think that if someone planning a homebirth doesnt not have a really, really clear idea of what they are going to want, they need to be in a safe situation to have lots of options to change their mind and have someone be a quiet and trustable person to keep them hydrated, fed, whatever needs come up. <BR/><BR/>I have long thought it such a shame that feminist groups stay away from birth issues, I am guessing it is left over stuff from the earlier waves of feminism that had all of motherhood wrapped up as rather lowly and disdainful, and abortion rights became front and center. Thank goodness for feminist mothers, raising up the next generation--now we need to unite and get some exposure!<BR/><BR/>Great job, Rixa as always :)Housefairyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07158143680987249710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20642800.post-68223147260051314632007-10-29T22:46:00.000-04:002007-10-29T22:46:00.000-04:00I enjoyed reading your thoughts. :) The "discussio...I enjoyed reading your thoughts. :) The "discussion" was pretty lame in my opinion, and I especially rolled my eyes at the part about "you don't see first-time moms choosing home birth" because my first was born at home. ;) But I do know people who had their first babies in the hospital and were so dissatisfied that they chose home births for future children... but they would readily say they wished they had made that choice for their first one, as well! ;)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20642800.post-63819028833264275132007-10-29T20:09:00.000-04:002007-10-29T20:09:00.000-04:00Another thought: if the woman and her husband have...Another thought: if the woman and her husband have varying degrees about what level of participation she wants during labor, it's very important to be careful that her basic needs are respected. So yes, marriage is about sharing and compromise. But birth itself is a very delicate hormonal process and so if the husband wants something that would disrupt the woman's ability to birth successfully, then her needs come first.Rixahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07908864785513937876noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20642800.post-29171220672621711942007-10-29T20:07:00.000-04:002007-10-29T20:07:00.000-04:00I'm interested that several commenters assumed tha...I'm interested that several commenters assumed that my first paragraph was meant prescriptively, as if I was saying that is what ALL women should experience. I was merely laying out my take on birth and how I interpret it based on my own experiences. <BR/><BR/>I was specifically disagreeing with the idea that somehow the father is the star of the show if he's the one catching the baby or helping the mother--which is more the way Lynn sees it, as well as other writers such as Marilyn Moran. If you read Moran's books, the books focus far more on the father than on the mother! It's all about his "right" to a certain experience and to his proper role (Moran was a devout Catholic) as head of the household, etc. <BR/><BR/>Not at all saying that fathers should be excluded if both they and the mother want his active participation. But still, no matter how helpful or supportive the dad is, the mother is the one bringing forth the child! <BR/><BR/>I didn't need any help in the form of telling me what to do, or back rubbing, or telling me I was doing great, etc. Some women really want or need this from their husbands. And if they do, great. And if they don't, great. <BR/><BR/>For me, Eric's presence in the room was distracting. I needed to focus all of my concentration on the birth, and his being there took away from my ability to do so. He helped in other ways, just not "directly": getting me things to eat and drink, fetching me towels after the birth, filling the tub up, taking pictures afterwards.Rixahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07908864785513937876noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20642800.post-32535336240896682742007-10-29T19:55:00.000-04:002007-10-29T19:55:00.000-04:00Disclaimer: This is my opinion. That is all it is-...Disclaimer: This is my opinion. That is all it is--opinion. <BR/><BR/>I completely disagree with the tone of your first paragraph. You make birth sound like some kind of competition to be in the spotlight and to get the "glory." I understand that perhaps you work best/feel more at ease in complete privacy with your husband in the other room. And I am sure that you and your husband were in agreement on how you personally arranged things, but I definitely don't think it should be just what the woman wants. Unfortunately that is what your paragraph seemed to portray birth as--all about WOMAN. Isn't marriage and family about partnership and unity? I hope that my husband has the opportunity to experience as much as the birth as possible (of course only if he wants to) because he has to miss out on so much of the other experiences (even if they are unpleasant experiences, they are still amazing). I think it is very dangerous to make birth a woman's power struggle, especially if it means excluding men. I am surprise by the emotion that this evoked out of me. I am normally very passive when I read your posts. You are great at getting people to think about things. Thanks!Melaniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14308874857175788114noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20642800.post-78076647207258693632007-10-29T19:52:00.000-04:002007-10-29T19:52:00.000-04:00I think that you made some good points. I think t...I think that you made some good points. <BR/><BR/>I think that a lot of the comments are right on. Many women are scared of birth. IF they could understand that birth can be enjoyable, beautiful and let go of that fear. Trust in themselves and their bodies, than that would make a HUGE difference in the birth world. <BR/><BR/>Education is a huge step in this. I wish that colleges or high schools would teach positive birth information to help empower women from a young age. Get them thinking about it in a positive way before they get pregnant. <BR/><BR/>Blogs even can educate women! So thanks for all you do. :)Enjoy Birthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13227246774801636777noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20642800.post-2322757317156839212007-10-29T19:30:00.000-04:002007-10-29T19:30:00.000-04:00My mother, who had 4 natural childbirths herself b...My mother, who had 4 natural childbirths herself but would have chosen the drugs in a hearbeat if she had had access to them, has MANY times told me that you don't get a medal for doing childbirth without drugs. I was astounded that she would say something like that because it shows that even after 4 births, she really doesn't have a clue about what birth can truly be. She had all her babies in military hospitals in the most naked, demeaning circumstances imaginable. To her, birth is something to be endured, not enjoyed. I fear that many, many women feel the same way because of the brainwashing they have received from the media, the medical profession, and society in general. This "interview" did nothing to change tha. How very sad.<BR/><BR/>Great ranting, Rixa. Thank you for being such a strong voice for sanity in the insanity of the birthing world.Kelleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16703334707738126703noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20642800.post-74549739775736052242007-10-29T15:46:00.000-04:002007-10-29T15:46:00.000-04:00I'm not a mother yet, but am very interested in ho...I'm not a mother yet, but am very interested in home birth. I agree that women should be at the center of birth, but I can understand why many women would want their husband/partner with them, and to even have him help catch. I can't imagine going thru labor and delivery without my husband to lean on and hearing his gentle voice. And I know he wants to be there too. <BR/><BR/>I understand your husband helped you in the way you needed him to, but I don't think all women desire the same level of privacy as you do.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20642800.post-27114974706363166552007-10-29T14:44:00.000-04:002007-10-29T14:44:00.000-04:00Well, I like your ranting :-)maria.Well, I like your ranting :-)<BR/>maria.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-20642800.post-45817303231169693502007-10-29T12:26:00.000-04:002007-10-29T12:26:00.000-04:00Oh, yes, the horrors of labor are deeply culturall...Oh, yes, the horrors of labor are deeply culturally ingrained. It's a mental assoociation, a reflex in people's minds: birth = bad pain<BR/><BR/>When I casually brought up homebirth to my husband, his only question was about pain (and screaming). Even men are hung up on this idea that birth = bad pain that we must avoid at all costs. Huh, interesting...men are freaked about our labor pain.<BR/><BR/>I have yet to meet a mother or pregnant woman who had or was planning on having a natural, midwife assisted, home-birth, or unassisted birth.<BR/><BR/>All these women spoke positively of epidurals...that epidurals were necissary, it's what you do. "why would you want more pain than necessary" they ask me when I bring up my interest in natural birthing.<BR/><BR/>Movies show women going so crazy with pain they beg for drugs. That horrid show on TLC presents pitocin and epidurals as the norm.<BR/><BR/>The media and cultural teachings the birth is frightful, painful, impossible are so strong. Thank you, Rixa, for sharing your story and your research.Britthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11072451849896101457noreply@blogger.com